Tales from the Diamond: The 12 Rings of the St. Louis Cardinals!

Arnold00:00:00

Championships. World Championships. Baseball. World Championships. The St. Louis Cardinals have 12 rings. 12 what, can't you count? Oh. We're going to find out more on St.Louis and Tune. Welcome to St.Louis in Tune and thank you for joining us for fresh perspectives on issues and events with experts, community leaders and everyday people who make a difference in shaping our society and world. I'm Arnold Stricker along with co host Mark Langston. And Mark, it's a great day for baseball.

Mark00:00:42

Finally.

Arnold00:00:43

Yes, they can pull the tarp off the field.

Mark00:00:46

That's what I'm talking about. Yep. We've had quite a few rain outs already.

Arnold00:00:50

Yes.

Mark00:00:50

So it's going to be nice to.

Arnold00:00:52

Head out to the old ballpark and get some popcorn.

Mark00:00:57

I know, I'm going tonight actually.

Arnold00:00:59

The hot dogs and all that stuff.

Mark00:01:00

Hoping for good things.

Arnold00:01:02

Yes, they're playing the New York Mets, is that correct?

Mark00:01:04

No, that was. No.

Arnold00:01:05

Oh, Pittsburgh Pirates tonight.

Mark00:01:06

The Pirates, yes.

Arnold00:01:07

Who's pitching for the Pirates? Is. Was it Skeens?

Ron00:01:11

Paul Skeens? Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Arnold00:01:13

Okay. Yeah. That'd be a good game then.

Mark00:01:16

Yeah.

Arnold00:01:16

Okay.

Mark00:01:17

For who?

Bob00:01:21

Skeens. A lot of problems.

Arnold00:01:22

Yeah. But they have his number a little bit.

Ron00:01:24

You know what the story is behind skiing somewhere a young guy found a rookie card, rookie baseball card of him. Now, for whatever reason, there's almost no other that exists.The Pirates found out about it and they offered this person, I think it was a young kid or a young man, they offered him season tickets behind home plate for 52 years or a million dollars. And guess what he took.

Arnold00:01:58

He took the million dollars.

Ron00:01:59

He took the million dollars. His family insisted on it because he's got a brother. And they said that way we know our kids are going to go to college.Now if he takes the season tickets, he could sell those over the course of 52 years. It's a strange story. I don't know where that rookie card came from or existed, but the story that I read didn't tell me that.But anyway, he's the brightest young pitcher in baseball, I guess at least one of them. And they offered him a million dollars or season tickets for 52 years behind home plate in Pittsburgh and they took a million.

Mark00:02:37

I might have resold some of those tickets. Right.

Ron00:02:39

That's my point. Yeah, it's my point. You could for 52 years. Yeah, you probably get more than a million dollars, but the million is up front.

Arnold00:02:48

So that that interlude on Paul Skeens was from Ron Jacober and we're gonna, we're gonna talk.

Ron00:02:53

I'M sorry.

Arnold00:02:54

No, you're fine. You're fine. We're gonna, we're gonna talk more to Ron and studio. Robert Tiemann here in a moment. We're glad that you've joined us today, folks.We want to thank our sponsor, Better Rate Mortgage for their support of the show.You can listen to previous shows@stlntune.com please help us continue to grow by leaving a review on our website, Apple Podcast or your preferred podcast platform. Our return to civility today is especially important if you're going to the ball game.Be very careful when you're carrying beverages in a public space. While spilling coffee on someone's shirt is the beginning of many romance stories, in reality, a spill will likely ruin someone's day.

Mark00:03:33

That's right.

Ron00:03:33

Or you get sued.

Arnold00:03:34

Or you get sued. Especially if it's hot coffee and it's not marked on the outside that it's hot.

Ron00:03:39

It was sorry the other day about a McDonald's coffee thing and they make it really hot. Okay. This woman got in the car and spilled it on her little son on his tummy and below and burned him.And they're suing McDonald's because he said it was too hot.

Mark00:03:54

Yeah, I read that article.

Arnold00:03:56

Yeah, it was a. So now it doesn't only say hot on the outside, it says very hot. Don't spill on your child. Common sense, folks. That's right, common sense.

Ron00:04:05

You never know.

Arnold00:04:06

No, you really don't. So we are going to be talking about 12 rings stories of the St. Louis Cardinals world championships. And in studio we have Robert Tiemann.Bob is an award winning baseball heavy hitter historian boy who has written several books and contributed to and edited many journals for the Society for American Baseball Research. He's the author of 64 Cardinals Immortal Moments in Cardinals History and the co author of twelve Rings. I love that.He's probably one of the best baseball historians around.

Mark00:04:37

Now before we get started, gents, when I saw the book, I said 12. No, we're 11.

Arnold00:04:44

That's why we're going to talk about that.

Ron00:04:45

Mark.

Mark00:04:45

I was quickly corrected but I can't wait till for the folks to listen.

Arnold00:04:49

Okay, yeah, we'll get that.

Mark00:04:51

Because it's an interesting story.

Bob00:04:52

It is.

Mark00:04:53

It really is. I've always thought 11 and I've been really wondering if we're going to get any more. Is it the Red Sox that are getting close to us?

Bob00:05:03

The actually the Oakland A's are second. The Athletics, they're not in Oakland.

Mark00:05:07

Is that right? Okay. So they're knocking on.

Bob00:05:09

Yeah yeah, they're at nine.

Mark00:05:10

Oh, see that's too close for me. Too close.

Arnold00:05:13

Anyway, our other guest is, he's actually a famous musician. Also famous saxophone player from France, Ron Jacoberet. He's the baron of broadcasting.He's broadcast for Cardinals baseball, blues, hockey, college basketball on espn, college football, hundreds of soccer games, cover the Olympics for CBS Radio, is a member of the Missouri Sports hall of Fame. Congratulations, Ron. And is still looking for that saxophone that he sold way back when his college days were over.

Mark00:05:40

Bill Clinton has it.

Ron00:05:44

Yeah, I, if I picked it up, I couldn't play it. That was a long time ago. But I did enjoy doing it back in the college days. Help pay my way through college.

Mark00:05:54

Chick magnet.

Arnold00:05:56

Yeah, better than the guitar. All right, so guys, 12 rings. It was 10 rings and then they won the 11th ring and you had to put a PDF supplement out and now it's 12 rings.So where are we at with this, Bob?

Bob00:06:10

Initially the digital 10 ring book did come out in 2011, early in the spring and by the way, end of the fall it was out of dated. So we put out something you could download a new ring. I actually made several copies and would staple them in the back of the old books.But that didn't help the sales much. Finally, 20 years later, the Reedy Press, the publisher said let's bring out a new one. I said we'll do it if we can make it.We'll make not 11 rings but 12 rings. And part of that is my co author for 10 rings was a guy, Jim Rogelski.And he and I were both big researchers on 19th century baseball, especially the 1880St. Louis Browns, who won four pennants in a row playing in the American Association.Every one of those years they would play the National League pennant winner in a World Series pre modern World Series, they won one of those. They claimed to have won another one too. But I said now Jim, my co author, he died 10 years ago, a little more.And so to bring back his memory and our initial friendship, I said if we do, I'll do it again. If we can do 12 rings. By counting the 1886 World Series as cardinal victory, it was Cardinal World Series win.Now that was the team was called the Browns back in those days. And the National League pennant winner that year was the Chicago White Stockings who are now called the Cubs.So this was really the beginning of the Cardinal Cubs rivalry. The first head to head matchups were these World Series 1885 and 1886. 1885 ended in dispute.1886 both teams won the pennant again and they were out for blood. So it was the first real World Series with NAG that got national attention. First time, really, the world's World Series were put together at all.

Arnold00:08:14

Wow. And this is not to be confused with the St. Louis Browns, who became the Baltimore Orioles. Different group.

Bob00:08:21

The Original Browns, the 1880s Browns, entered the National League in 1892. The by that time, just like the Reds and the Pirates and the Dodgers, they all came from the American association into the National League.

Ron00:08:36

Contrary to what people may think, I did not cover that World Series in 1886.

Arnold00:08:41

You were playing saxophone somewhere.

Ron00:08:43

Right there. That's right. In Jamaica, as a matter of fact. One of the interesting things we found about 1886 was the gambling that went on.

Arnold00:08:55

Really?

Ron00:08:55

Yeah, locally. According to the research that we found, an estimated $50,000 was bet on that World Series here in St. Louis in 1886. It was a lot of money.Now, it wasn't legal, of course, just like it isn't now yet. But Bob and I were not there at that World Series. I just wanted to clarify that.

Bob00:09:15

And that's $50,000. The total gate receipts for the six games of the series was just over $13,000. And the players, the Browns players got half of.The kicker on the series was this was a rematch from last year's disputed series. So the winning team would get all the gate receipts and the losers would get nothing.

Mark00:09:39

That's brutal.

Bob00:09:40

That's brutal. Yes, but the Browns won. Owner Chris Vondere, he split, gave half of the winnings to the players, which is turned out to be $530.50 per man.Not quite what you get in the World Series.

Arnold00:09:56

And the White Stockings didn't have somebody who is from the crowd that leaned and got in the way of a foul ball or anything like that.

Bob00:10:04

No. The Cubs lost legitimately, as they often have.

Arnold00:10:07

So as we go through this book, you really winner takes all. You've got that initial cardinal, cub, what I'm going to call cardinal cub kind of winner takes all at the front end.And then you go through each series in some pretty interesting details. What are some of the things that of any of the series? Let me ask you this. What's your favorite series? Or do you have one?

Bob00:10:30

My favorite series was, I guess, 1982.

Ron00:10:33

Me too.

Mark00:10:35

Really?

Bob00:10:36

Just because I just moved back to St. Louis to launch my career as a baseball historian and I've been in St. Louis ever since. And it just. It brought baseball back in a way that it.It hadn't been in this town for a dozen years, 15 years.

Arnold00:10:53

I remember that series. I was at that first game. They lost 10 to nothing. I sat in center field, got the seats given to me from a friend and he couldn't attend.And it was like, holy smokes.

Mark00:11:06

I've never seen the St. Louis streets after that win the way that I saw.

Ron00:11:11

Yeah, it was crazy.

Mark00:11:12

It was crazy because I was at.

Ron00:11:14

Channel 5 in those days covering all that post game stuff. And it was nuts because it'd been a long time since Cardinal. They weren't very good in the 70s.

Mark00:11:21

No.

Ron00:11:21

And it's been a long time since they won. But as you look at the lineup in 1982, it's like. Almost like it was last year.Tommy Herr, Lonnie Smith, Keith Hernandez, George Hendrick, Darrell Porter, Willie McGee, Ken Oberfeld and Ozzie Smith were the starting lineup. And pitcher Joaquin Anuhar, Bob Forsh, Jon Stewper, Bruce Souter, Jim Catt. I mean it. To me, it was almost like it happened last month.

Mark00:11:48

Good point, Ron.

Ron00:11:48

Yeah. So it was very famous players, Cardinal players out of that year that we remember fondly because it was quite a series, really.It went down to seven games, right? Yeah.

Mark00:12:00

Was that Whitey Herzog? He was the manager.

Ron00:12:02

That was Whitey Ball.

Mark00:12:03

Yeah.

Ron00:12:04

After he came here, he made a. He made so many trades. I think he traded 13 players after he got here to try to. Gussie Boyce hired him because he was.

Arnold00:12:12

GM and manager, wasn't he, during that time?

Ron00:12:14

At that point?

Bob00:12:15

Yes, he was the opening day. He turned over the GM ship to a guy named John McDonald from the Mets.

Ron00:12:24

Yeah.

Bob00:12:24

But basically he pretty much. They worked in concert very well. So they got. Whitey, got the players he wanted.

Ron00:12:30

I remember Gussie hired him and told him, do what you want to do. We need to win, we need to win. And so he did. And I got to know Whitey really well because I did a.The pregame show, the dugout show, before every Cardinal telecast on Channel 5, then did a number of games that season on Channel 5. Jay Randolph was the primary guy with Jack Buck, but Jay had a lot of conflicts with NBC for golf and football and that kind of thing.So I did a number of the games. And the Cardinals. I don't wear this very often, but I showed it to you guys.

Arnold00:13:02

Right.

Ron00:13:03

The Cardinals gave me the World Series ring on day one of the next season, of the 82 season.

Arnold00:13:08

He's flashing his 82 World Series flash. That for the camera right there, Ron. There you go. There you go. Is the 82 series your favorite?

Ron00:13:16

Yeah, it is. Because of that. Okay, because of that. Because it was. I was so close to it at that point. And I remember that post game celebration downtown.It was phenomenal. The number of people that stayed downtown.

Arnold00:13:29

Right.

Ron00:13:30

People on top of cars, buses and.

Mark00:13:33

Buses they were dancing on top of by state buses.

Ron00:13:35

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. And then I had to spend the whole night and early morning putting together an hour special on channel.

Arnold00:13:45

Oh my gosh.

Ron00:13:46

And I never went to bed. I remember that part. But it was a special time in my life because of that.I've always been a Cardinal fan since I was old enough to understand baseball. But that was really special to be 82.

Mark00:13:59

Yeah.

Arnold00:14:00

That's cool. That's cool. Tell me about the Murderer's Row. What's that all?

Bob00:14:05

Well, The Yankees in 1926, 27, 28 were called the Murderer's Throw. They had Lou Gehrig and Babe Ruth and Bob Musil were the three big bands. And in 1926, the Yankees were just in their fourth World Series.It was the first for the Cardinals in the National League. And the Yankees were slight favorites, but not anywhere. They weren't the real powerhouse.Now the next year they had the 1927 Yankees, the greatest team ever. The 26 Yankees were basically the same team, but the Cardinals beat them out in seven game. Very close, tightly played seven game series.And that set off St. Louis for a celebration unlike really any other St. Louis has ever had before or since.And they say that the downtown streets, you couldn't walk because there was so much wet confetti because it rained that night.

Arnold00:14:58

Wow.

Bob00:14:58

That the cars couldn't get traction. People were falling all over. And maybe there was a little prohibition era hooch somewhere, some revelry going on.

Arnold00:15:10

Little revelry.

Mark00:15:11

Oh, my goodness.

Ron00:15:12

The other one that I really liked was 2011 primarily because of David Freeze. And Freeze will live in Cardinal history forever.And it's interesting because the Cardinals wanted to put him in the hall of Fame and he refused, turned it down because I shouldn't be in for one swing of the bat. And he moved to Texas to get out of the notoriety and he couldn't go anywhere without people recognizing him and wanting to talk about it.And he's a very quiet guy and. But now I think he's coming back some to help in spring training and things like that.But the David Freese home run was unlike anything I've ever seen. It was. He told me, he said, I've never hit a ball harder, never hit A ball harder dead center field into that grassy area.And the Cardinals were well out away from losing that series.

Arnold00:16:00

Was like one strike away twice or something.

Ron00:16:02

Two or three times.

Mark00:16:04

I see his point, Ron, but I still think he should have caught in there. I think they should have put him in.

Ron00:16:09

He will be eventually.

Mark00:16:10

Yeah. Because that was like you say, it was such an important swing of the bat.

Ron00:16:14

Yeah. But he said hall of Fame should be for career, not for one swing of the bat.

Mark00:16:17

Okay.

Bob00:16:18

You got to respect that wasn't the moment. The real ecstasy moment wasn't the home run in the 11th inning, but the triple in the ninth inning with two outs that tied the game.Kept the Cardinal season alive.

Ron00:16:34

Exactly. The right fielder misplayed it too.

Bob00:16:36

Yeah. Yeah. Sitting in the upper deck and so you could see him drifting back so you think he's got it, game over. And then he didn't get it, so.

Ron00:16:43

He turned the wrong way. And the free sliding into third base was indelibly etched into my mind too. In addition to the home run.

Arnold00:16:51

It's those kinds of. Of exciting moments that generate. They vibrate through the rest of the team and get everybody pumped up.

Ron00:16:58

If you're a real baseball fan, you remember those kinds of things forever.

Arnold00:17:02

That's true. We've got Alberto's turn Boston's impossible dream into a nightmare. We always love that for Boston.Gibson goes the distance for Gussie Bush's first title. I've. People don't know about Enos Slaughter a whole lot. That was my parents, our parents generation.My mom always would go to the Sportsman's park and get the autographs of the. The crew, the. What do they call them, the Gas House Gang. And would watch them play Pepper ball there back and forth. And Pepper Martin, what.What Cardinal are. Let me.I don't want to put you on the spot here, but give me the names of like three to five Cardinals that you think really have they capture the Cardinal experience. Three to five Cardinals who capture the Cardinal experience.

Bob00:17:50

I would. Pepper Martin was just. He was the wild horse of the Osage. And he was a wild man. Hustled everywhere. Never wore a jock strap, never wore a cup.

Arnold00:18:02

Played, but took life into his own hands.

Bob00:18:06

Slid face first, head first every. Everywhere, every base. It just was a. Almost manic when he played ball. And that's really the ultimate in Cardinal hit hustle.With pepper Martin in 1931, he was a virtual unknown until the World Series. And then he hit.500 for the series, 12 hits, stole five bases, and was named the Sportsman of The year just for his World Series wow.Achievement that year.

Arnold00:18:36

That's crazy.

Bob00:18:37

And then played to the Cardinals all the way through 1944.

Ron00:18:42

My first player has to be Stan Musial. I was a young guy when I was growing up and I used to listen to the Cardinal games with Harry Carey.And I was a right handed hitter hitting my Maple Leaf home runs over my dad's garage thinking I was the next Musial. I got to know Stan really well. My late father couldn't believe it when I told him that Stan and I were on a first name basis.I got to know him really well. He was. He's number one in my mind because I was around Stan a lot. Never saw him rude to anybody.He used to carry cards around like a baseball card that already autographed. He'd hand them out to anybody who would want them. I saw him just stand and sign.His signature stuff is not worth all that much because he signed so much. But he was my main hero. But that would be number one in. In my mind. And I eventually wound up doing commercials for his company, Stand the Man Inc.On Camel X on sports on a Sunday morning that I did for 25 years. And I would do it and I was told he would turn it on just to hear because he liked the way I did the commercial. And then he turned it off again. But.But Stan was an amazing individual.

Arnold00:19:51

Yes.

Ron00:19:52

I've never saw him rude to anybody. I'm sure he had bad days, but I never saw any of them. I never saw any of them. And he. I don't think he listened very well though.I told the story about he saw a young waiter from one of the South St. Louis restaurants and stands. How are you? How are you? Oh, I'm not very good. My dad. Oh, good, good, good. He just wouldn't listen.But when he was given the Medal of Freedom by Obama, President Obama, he took his harmonica into the White House and all over. He was playing Take me Out to the Ball game in the White House.Now he had a lot of dementia in those days, but I'm told that he really came alive for that short period of time. But he was the gem. He was my main guy. I also was a big fan of Kenny Boyer. I thought he was terrific.Third baseman and the captain, they used to call him Harry Carey for whatever reason. Didn't like Kenny Boyer. Used to rip him on the air. But I don't know why. But apparently they had some words at one point.But I was with Boyer the day he got fired. As the Cardinal manager, I was doing the Cardinal game in Montreal. It was. We were doing a double header. They had a doubleheader.I wasn't doing both games. We just did one game again. And the Cardinal general manager showed up between games to fire him now and fired him. He fired him between games.But Kenny was not a great manager, I'll be the first to admit that. So I had a plane flight back to St. Louis because I was not going to go on with the team.So I expressed my condolences to him and I said, kenny, I've got a flight back to St. Louis at 5:00. You want me to try to get you on? Absolutely. So I called the airline, got him on, and we had to change planes in Chicago.And I called the newsroom and said, all right, I'm with Boyer. You're what? I said, I'm with Boyer. I'm the only guy in the world that knows where he is. Okay, we're going to land at this time at Lambert.Meet me with a camera crew out there. So all the way back, Kenny spilled his guts to me. I mean, about everything going on with management, with ownership, with players.We're about 10 minutes out of St. Louis, and I said, kenny, I've got a camera crew waiting to do a short interview. Oh, I won't do that.I said, for three hours you've been spilling your heart to me. You won't talk to me. He said, no, I can't do it today. I have to wait and do it, maybe do it tomorrow.So we get to Lambert, and I couldn't communicate with the camera crew that he wasn't going to talk. So he gets off the plane, walks through, the lights come on, and he really got angry, shoved the cameraman, and I told you I wouldn't talk.He apologized the next day, but I explained to him what happened, that I couldn't. But I liked Kenny Boyer. I thought he was a terrific ballplayer and a wonderful captain of the team back in.In those days, one of the best Cardinal third basemen ever.

Bob00:22:45

He wasn't appointed captain, no, but he just. He earned it from all his teammates.

Ron00:22:50

The players called him captain. Right.

Bob00:22:52

He had the ultimate respect for players from all Cardinals and the opposition team.

Ron00:22:57

He hits a big home run in Yankee Stadium.

Bob00:23:00

Yeah.

Arnold00:23:01

64 Series.

Bob00:23:02

First World Series game I was ever at.

Arnold00:23:04

That's right. Brother Cleat playing for the Yankees also.

Ron00:23:07

Both third baseman, by the way.

Arnold00:23:09

Yes. This is Arnold Stricker with Mark Langson of St. Louis in Tomb. We're going to take a brief break. We've been talking to Ron Jacobert.He's the baron of broadcasting and Bob Thiemann, who's the heavy hitting historian here. And we're talking about the latest book, 12 rings. Stay tuned. We'll be right back. Everyone in St. Louis promises a better mortgage rate.But what you really need to turn that perfect house into your dream home is a better mortgage. At Better Rate Mortgage, we open the door to so much more.Whether you're purchasing your first home or taking cash out to make your dream home even dreamier, our door is open. Come on in and get started. Today. We'll show you how.Call Sean directly at 314-375-3293 or online@betterratemortgage.com Remember, at Better Rate Mortgage, A Better Rate is just the beginning. Betterratemortgage.com NMLS ID 2401335 and equal housing lender.

Mark00:24:02

OK.

Ron00:24:09

Foreign.

Arnold00:24:14

Welcome back to St. Louis in tune. This is Arnold Stricker with Mark Langston. We're talking to Bob Tiemann and ron Jacober about 12 rings stories of the St.Louis Cardinals world's Championships.

Mark00:24:26

And Ron Jacob is wearing one of those rings.

Arnold00:24:28

He is wearing one.

Ron00:24:29

It's gorgeous.

Arnold00:24:30

It's not gaudy. It's less is more. And it's very stylish. Ron?

Ron00:24:34

Yeah. It's got my name on it. I don't wear it very often because I always, I never wore it around the players. I said I didn't deserve this.I'm not going to wear World Series ring around the players who had a World Series ring. But the players these days want so much bling in it. They want so many diamonds in it. And I call it the doorstop.They become so big that you can't hardly wear it. I don't wear this very often, though. But I wore it today because we were talking about 82.

Arnold00:24:59

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Ron00:25:01

It was neat that they gave it to me on opening day in 83. And I was surprised.

Arnold00:25:07

Now, I asked previously, if you've just joined us, I asked both of our guests name an individual Cardinal who really exemplified Cardinal baseball. And Bob said Pepper Martin. And for those of you who don't know who he is, you can get the book and find out a little bit more about him.Ron mentioned Stan Jacoba. My next question is Stan Jacob. Yeah. Stan Musial.

Ron00:25:29

I could be Stan.

Arnold00:25:30

Senior moment. Yeah, Senior moment for me.

Ron00:25:34

I add one, one other player to that and that's Ozzie Smith.

Arnold00:25:36

Yes.

Ron00:25:37

I Think Ozzy exemplified what it's like.

Arnold00:25:39

To be a Cardinal and continues to do that.

Ron00:25:42

Continues to do that.

Arnold00:25:42

Yes. That's a big thing. Who's the most underrated player of the Cardinals?For your thoughts, I'll give you time to think about that as I talk about the book. Folks, you can get this book from Reedy Press. R E e d y press.com reedy press.And they go into all of the World Series WINS, including that 12th one, the that Bob was talking about, where the St. Louis Browns defeated the White Stockings. And you're going like, that's not Cardinals. The Browns became the Cardinals.The White Stockings became the Chicago Cubs. So there you are. You got to go back and listen to the interview to find it all. Better yet, get the book. That'll explain it. Okay, guys, I would.

Bob00:26:22

One of the. The favorite of mine who won two World Series rings for the Cardinals was Julian Javier. He was.

Mark00:26:29

Haven't heard that name.

Arnold00:26:30

Second baseman.

Bob00:26:31

Yeah, second baseman. Just a acrobat. The Phantom, they call him. He. You couldn't. The people used to take people out on double plays. Some of you must remember those days.You couldn't get. You couldn't touch Javier. He was always flying away from the guys and just a very acrobatic, great defensive player.Not much of a hitter, especially against right handers, although he hit left handers very well. But he ran the bases. He was one of the fastest players in the league when he came up.And the kind of guy that to be a championship repeat champion, especially you got to have the steady guys who aren't going to be the big star. And Javier's one who can fit that bill.

Ron00:27:15

I don't know if he qualifies as being underrated. I think he does. I'm talking about Keith Hernandez, okay? Now, Hernandez, his reputation was soiled a little bit here in St.Louis because of a drug issue and Whitey traded him. And Keith later on admitted that he, with many other players in that era, were using performance enhancing drugs.But he was the best first baseman I've ever seen. And I got to know him some, but I think he was.I think he's underrated in the minds of Cardinal fans as they don't really remember or know how good he was at first base. Some people that I respect claim he's the best first baseman they've ever seen defensively, and he's a pretty good hitter, too.But Keith Hernandez, I think I would.

Bob00:28:02

Agree with that, too. Won a batting title almost.

Ron00:28:04

Yeah, second one. So he may not be Underrated in the minds of some people, but I think he is maybe younger. Cardinal fans don't know that much about Keith Hernandez.He went into broadcasting after that and I think he's still working in New York.

Arnold00:28:18

Was he with the Mets?

Ron00:28:18

Yes.

Arnold00:28:19

Okay.

Ron00:28:19

Yeah. Wow. Turns out to be a good broadcaster, too.

Arnold00:28:22

Yeah, because he got traded to the Mets. Right.

Ron00:28:25

Okay. Whitey, when Whitey cleaned house, he was one guy he got rid of because Keith was involved with that along with Gary Templeton.Although Templeton story is.

Arnold00:28:34

That's another one.

Bob00:28:37

Whitey never publicly said anything about cocaine.

Ron00:28:42

No, he didn't. He didn't. He couldn't in those days because managers, they couldn't test, okay, they couldn't test the players.The players association somehow prohibited that. So all those guys that were juicing, that's what I called anyway, in those days, they couldn't test him.So you could suspect it and you might even know it, but you couldn't say anything about it. And so Whitey couldn't. He couldn't say anything about it at that point. But there's no question Keith was. And he later admitted it, of course.

Arnold00:29:15

But how much influence, like I think back to Mike Schilt and how he used that book that he was given from George.

Bob00:29:24

George Kissel.

Arnold00:29:25

George Kissel. Talk a little bit about George Kissel and his impact on the Cardinals and the Cardinal organization.

Bob00:29:32

He was the keeper of the flame, really. Starting around the time Whitey Herzog came in. George was now the dean of Cardinal minor league coaching.

Arnold00:29:44

He was a coach for Whitey. Wasn't he like third base coach or something?

Ron00:29:47

I don't know that he was ever.

Bob00:29:48

I don't think he ever had a field role.

Ron00:29:52

He was the instructor, so to speak, the par excellence director, okay? Infielders would go to him all the time, and he taught a lot of ballplayers the right way to play baseball. And he. Players really respected that.But those were the days when coaches coached. When coaches analyzed players based on what they did on the field, what kind of a character they were.They didn't use all these statistics and become the in vogue now. And that's what happened with Schilt, by the way. Schilt would be given.Well, when they brought in Jeff Lunow, okay, it was the Moneyball concept, okay, where you judged a player based on statistics rather than as an athlete or as a player and what he could and couldn't do.And every morning I'm told that Schulte would have a book on his desk at the ballpark about who he should play, how he should play him, who he should pitch, how you pitch, this guy, that guy. And many times it went in the tri scan. And when the Cardinals found out about it at the end of that season, they fired him on the phone.And now that's the current thing you've got to do, apparently to exist in baseball is buy into the statistical analysis of players rather than your own judgment. And that was what. That's what happened with Walt Jocherty, the Cardinal general manager.Walt was a great analyst, great keen eye for talent, and he was able to. And he made some marvelous trades, by the way.But when Lunau came in, who wound up in Houston, by the way, eventually Walt could not accept that statistical approach to judging players. And that's why they fired him. Ironically, they're going to put him in their hall of Fame coming up. Jockey. And he died just about two weeks ago.I knew Walter. He was out with me every Sunday morning from start of spring training till the end of the baseball season for about 10 years.I got to know him really well. I got to really respect him. But he was an old school general manager.He would judge players and had coaches judge players based on their talent and their approach to the game, their knowledge of the game, not on a bunch of numbers. And he couldn't accept that. And so that's why they fired him.Now they put him, unfortunately, they're going to put him in the hall of Fame now after he died. But I'm told that he was aware as he was dying that was going to happen. That was going to happen. So he know, he knew it.

Arnold00:32:22

But Bob, did George Kissel play ball? Is that how he got this or was he just this?

Bob00:32:28

Yeah, he. In the minors, he didn't never made majors.But he quickly, I think the story goes that he quickly, when he figured he wasn't going to be a star player, he turned to coaching and that became his life and not to he. There was no analytics in George Kissel.

Ron00:32:48

It was all what he saw.

Bob00:32:49

Yeah. So how to move your feet, how to set your. To make your throw.

Arnold00:32:54

I think there's probably a balance between those two because sometimes some players will perform in certain situations that you wouldn't expect. And maybe the stats say that's going to happen, but maybe they're having a bad day or somebody's having a good day.

Ron00:33:09

You can't judge them totally on statistics. And that's what's happened with a lot of teams. That's the current philosophical approach to scouting players, I think.And Some guys just can't accept that. Walt couldn't accept it.

Bob00:33:22

The whole basis for that analytic approach is that every at bat's the same. Every pitch is the same. And I've been to ball games where, you know, David freezes the ball off the walls and changes the game.

Arnold00:33:36

Every bat's different, it seems.

Mark00:33:38

There you go.

Ron00:33:39

So anyway, that's. That's the statistical approach to the game these days. And Ali Marmal, the current manager, I'm sure, subscribes to most of that.He makes a lot of decisions based on what he's told.

Arnold00:33:53

And the analytical people, I'm just amazed at. And whenever. I know we've talked before and we've talked with our other baseball guru, guy who. Who comes in here. Gosh, I'm buffering.You know who I'm talking about.

Mark00:34:07

Yeah.

Arnold00:34:08

Are you buffering, too?

Mark00:34:09

I am.

Arnold00:34:11

We're not taking buffering. We're taking. We're buffering our brains. Ed Wheatley. Ed Wheatley comes in and talks about baseball, too.

Ron00:34:18

Ed's a dear friend of mine. You're very knowledgeable, by the way.

Arnold00:34:21

Very knowledgeable.

Ron00:34:22

What.

Arnold00:34:22

The biggest thing I just don't understand is this.I grew up during the 60s and watching the Cardinals and Bob Gibson pitching all these complete games, and Steve Carlton and even Bob Force, they pitch all these complete games. And there were, like, very few relievers on the 64 World Series team. You had the knuckleballer, Barney Schultz, and you had somebody else.Kurt Simmons was on that team. He was a pitcher. What? But now it's okay. Gee, I've gone 100 pitches and I need to stop, or I've gone 90 pitches, I need to stop. And then you bring.It's always okay, this is the setup guy, and then this is the setup for the setup guy. Okay? Now, this is the closer. Gibson would just. I remember he told McCarver, what are you doing out here? Get back behind the plate.

Ron00:35:06

What he told him is, you don't know anything about.

Bob00:35:09

The only thing you know about pitching is you can't.

Ron00:35:11

You can't hit it.

Arnold00:35:12

Yeah.

Ron00:35:13

So get back behind the plate. Tim told that story a number of times.

Arnold00:35:19

What's with all that? I know. And then they're getting paid millions and millions of dollars, I think. Oh, gee.Every inning they're out there, they're making, like, 400 grand. It's. What is this all about? Why can't they. Nolan. NOLAN Ryan.

Ron00:35:32

Yeah.

Arnold00:35:33

200 something pitches a game.

Ron00:35:35

That would be rare. 200 pitches. But. But, yeah, a lot of guys Gibson told me. Oh, hell, he's 150, 160 pitches a lot in a game. It's the philosophy of the game.It's how the game has changed. The pitchers are trained from the time they're even in high school. If you go five or six innings, that's great.

Bob00:35:56

Throw as fast as you can for as long as you can.

Ron00:35:58

As fast as you can, as long as you can. Bob's right about that. So they throw so hard.I think one of the worst things that's happened to baseball is the pitch is the radar gun, because after every pitch, whether you're at the ballpark or watching on television, it's the speed of the pitch. And people have become so enamored. Enamored, I guess, is the best word. Yeah, Good word for it. About how hard you're throwing. Oh, my God.He's throwing in mid-90s.

Mark00:36:22

Yeah.

Ron00:36:22

Oh, he's dropped a mile or two. What's wrong with him? He's only throwing 93 now. And it didn't used to be up there. Gibson didn't know how hard he threw.

Arnold00:36:31

It's about movement and it's about placement.

Mark00:36:34

Not many of Wainwright's pitches were very fast.

Ron00:36:37

It's pitching. It's guys that can pitch rather than throw, right?

Arnold00:36:41

Yes.

Ron00:36:42

And a lot of them just get up and throw. Throw as hard as you can, as long as you can. So they only go to five or six innings. They're trained that way.

Mark00:36:49

That's a great analogy. Pitching and throwing perfect.

Arnold00:36:53

It seems like I always call these guys head cases because they get out there, and it's kind of like Rabowski did his thing. He had a shtick that he did, and it was part of his. Part of his deal, his Persona.But it's like they get up there, and to me, it's, okay, you're up here. This is what you do. This is what you're paid to do.

Ron00:37:08

Agents are a big part of this.

Arnold00:37:10

That's true. That's true.

Ron00:37:11

Agents run the game.

Arnold00:37:13

What were you going to say, Bob?

Bob00:37:14

I was just going to say that it's all about location, not.

Arnold00:37:17

Yeah.

Bob00:37:17

Not velocity.

Arnold00:37:18

Yeah.

Bob00:37:18

And pacing yourself. Gibson would. Would have the same velocity pretty much at the end of the game.

Arnold00:37:25

That's true.

Bob00:37:26

Did first. Because he didn't have to. He wasn't using it all the way through.

Arnold00:37:30

That's true.

Ron00:37:31

Yesterday's Cardinal game, Ryan Hills Day. The last pitch of the game. 102 miles an hour. 102 miles an hour. I don't. So if you do that, you're not going to pitch very long.No, you can't do it physically, you can't do it, but that's what that's worth.

Arnold00:37:44

I think it would shorten somebody's career, too, certainly.

Mark00:37:49

Oh, yeah.

Bob00:37:49

Not all of them, but, yeah. Very short careers and firm pitchers these days.

Arnold00:37:54

Okay, guys.

Mark00:37:55

Wow. It's interesting how short pitchers, they don't pitch long. They don't pitch a lot of innings anymore.Because of that, I think because of that velocity issue there, too.

Arnold00:38:04

That's true.

Mark00:38:05

I used to like watching Gibson pitch eight, nine.

Arnold00:38:09

And you knew the game was going to be two hours, right? Because he didn't mess around.

Mark00:38:13

Uh, no.

Ron00:38:14

Do you know that Gibson. Let me get this right now, Bob, you can help me. More complete games than victories. More complete games.Bob Gibson, more complete games than he won then. Career victories. Wow, That's a strange.

Bob00:38:29

1968, he 34 starts, 28 of them complete. There were not 28 major league complete games last year. The whole major league.

Arnold00:38:38

And he had A what, a 1.12 ERA?

Bob00:38:41

Yeah.

Ron00:38:41

Yeah.

Arnold00:38:41

Then the next year they.

Ron00:38:42

Oh, look at you.

Arnold00:38:43

Yeah.

Ron00:38:44

They lowered the mound because of him.

Arnold00:38:46

Because of that, right?

Ron00:38:47

Yeah, because of that.

Mark00:38:48

Is that right?

Ron00:38:49

Yes.

Mark00:38:49

Is that right? Okay.

Bob00:38:50

Because of. He wasn't the only one.

Mark00:38:53

Right.

Bob00:38:53

His pitchers were so dominant in 68.

Ron00:38:56

Yeah.

Bob00:38:56

So Danny McLean won 30 games with a 1.6 ERA.

Arnold00:39:00

Denny McLean. And then you had to jail, by the way. Denny McLean. Yeah, yeah.

Ron00:39:05

For tax evasion.

Arnold00:39:06

Yeah. He had Koufax before that. And Drysdale. Those guys.

Mark00:39:09

Oh, Drysdale. Yeah.

Arnold00:39:11

The book is Twelve Rings Stories of the St. Louis Cardinals World Championship. It's a great, wonderful book, folks. You need to get that great one for Mother's Day. Father's Day.Coming up here, folks. Check that one out@reedypress.com readypress.com Gentlemen, thanks for coming in again.

Ron00:39:25

Yeah, thanks very much. Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure.

Arnold00:39:28

And please stay around for our little banter that we have. Is that all right?

Ron00:39:32

You have banter?

Arnold00:39:33

We have banter. Mark's going to talk about the days of the day.

Mark00:39:36

Am I? Oh, I guess I am. Okay.

Ron00:39:38

Is that same thing as a brain freeze like you guys have?

Arnold00:39:43

He's got it right.

Mark00:39:44

I know.

Arnold00:39:44

He's not buffering.

Mark00:39:45

He's a troublemaker.

Ron00:39:46

Buffering. Yeah. You were buffering.

Mark00:39:48

Quite the troublemaker is what he is.

Bob00:39:52

Like a football maneuver.

Mark00:39:55

Yeah. Wow.

Arnold00:39:57

Actually, our word of the day is quintessential.

Ron00:39:59

Ooh.

Arnold00:40:00

Ever relating to the perfect embodiment of something. This book, Twelve Rings is the quintessential understanding of St. Louis Cardinal. World Series.

Mark00:40:09

Wow.

Bob00:40:09

Very good.

Ron00:40:10

I'm impressed that you knew what quintessential meant.

Mark00:40:15

I'm not. Still not sure what it means. That's just me.

Arnold00:40:19

So what is the day of today, Mark?

Mark00:40:21

There's just a couple here. Nurses. National Nurses Day. Teacher's Day. Bring an apple to school. The kids are still in school, aren't they?

Arnold00:40:30

Yes. One more, one and a half more weeks.

Mark00:40:32

Is that right? Okay. A National Beverage Day. Do you guys have a favorite beverage?

Bob00:40:37

Yes.

Arnold00:40:39

Can you mention it on the air?

Mark00:40:40

Is it an adult beverage?

Bob00:40:43

My dad worked for anheuser Busch for 30 years and then switched to Pabst. But I'm a Budweiser guy.

Mark00:40:49

Hey, we just did the Budweiser tour. What a fun thing that was, that.

Ron00:40:53

At the brewery here.

Mark00:40:54

Yeah. And you do get free beer, which I thought. No, they're just kidding. But National Foster Care Day. That's very forgotten thing that goes on there.

Arnold00:41:05

That's a good one, huh?

Ron00:41:07

Roger Cobra Saxophone Day.

Mark00:41:08

Maybe we'll submit that to Congress and see how we do it.

Arnold00:41:13

Yeah. They got enough problems.

Mark00:41:15

Do they really?

Ron00:41:17

I know.

Mark00:41:18

Let's see. I don't know. There's not much else. National Paste Up Day. That's dumb. Who comes up with that kind of thing?

Ron00:41:24

Paste Up Day.

Mark00:41:25

Yeah. I don't know what you're pacing up. School Nurse Day.

Arnold00:41:28

Yeah, big one.

Mark00:41:29

Did you have a school nurse?

Arnold00:41:30

Yes, we did.

Mark00:41:32

Is that required to have a nurse nowadays?

Arnold00:41:34

It is, yes.

Mark00:41:34

Is that right? Okay. Because we never. I don't think we had one when I was in school.

Arnold00:41:40

All they do is pretty much just dispense medication.

Mark00:41:42

That's how long ago it make a book day. That should be in the 12 rings. I know the whole thing.

Arnold00:41:49

These guys made a book. There it is.

Mark00:41:52

That's crazy. Yeah. I don't know. Coconut Cream Pie Day.

Arnold00:41:56

That's good stuff.

Mark00:41:58

Yeah. You guys like. Is that good? Yeah, I, yeah, Nothing like it. National Maria Day. My wife's name's Maria. Don't tell her.

Ron00:42:07

Who picks all this stuff?

Mark00:42:08

I, I, they're honestly, they. And they've got big stories to go along with all of them.

Arnold00:42:13

We blame the Congress.

Mark00:42:13

National Student Nurse.

Ron00:42:15

That's good. That's good. Either.

Mark00:42:17

No socks.

Arnold00:42:18

Yeah.

Mark00:42:18

No socks Day.

Arnold00:42:19

No socks Day.

Mark00:42:20

We're trying to get Ron to put his shoes and socks back on.

Arnold00:42:23

All right.

Mark00:42:23

Yeah, I know. So at World Donkey Day, for all those people in Washington, D.C. they have a donkey.

Ron00:42:34

Yeah.

Mark00:42:35

They call it in. Never mind.

Arnold00:42:37

Hey, Mark, I went skydiving today for the first time. This guy strapped himself to me. We jumped out of the plane, and as we plummeted, he said, so how long have you been an instructor?

Mark00:42:45

Wow, this is really bad stuff. It's gonna get worse.

Arnold00:42:48

Ron, have you ever been in one of those moods where you don't really know what's wrong, but you really feel irritated with everyone and everything?

Mark00:42:57

Okay. Yeah. All right is right.

Arnold00:43:01

Okay, let's try this one. This morning, I saw a neighbor talking to her cat. It was obviously that she thought her cat understood her.So I came to my house and told my dog, and we laughed a lot.

Mark00:43:13

Golly.

Arnold00:43:15

No matter how good the hand soap smells, never walk out of the bathroom sniffing your fingers.

Mark00:43:21

Ron, you can turn his mic off anytime. Just pull the microphone away.

Ron00:43:25

These are supposed to be funny.

Mark00:43:26

They're supposed to be right.

Arnold00:43:29

I hate it when people ask me if I did anything exciting over the weekend. Like, I'm over here skydiving. I'm old. I went to Walmart, did some laundry, ate too much food and took a nap.

Ron00:43:42

Pretty typical day.

Mark00:43:43

Yeah, we're all agreeing. I don't know what's wrong with that.

Arnold00:43:45

My mind is like my Internet browser. 19 tabs open, three of them are frozen, and I have no idea where the music's coming from.Did you know that in Las Vegas there are more Catholic churches than casinos? Not surprisingly, some worshipers at Sunday services will give casino chips rather than cash when the basket is passed.That happened since they get chips from many different casinos. The churches have devised a method to collect the offerings.The churches send all their collected chips to a nearby Franciscan monastery for sorting, and then the chips are taken to the casinos of origin and cash in. This is done by the Chipmunks.

Ron00:44:25

Oh, wow.

Mark00:44:26

This is getting worse.

Ron00:44:27

That was a good story until you got to the end of Punchline.

Mark00:44:30

It's getting worse, Ron.

Arnold00:44:31

I found that I've been happier since I changed from coffee in the morning to orange juice. My doctor explained that it's the vitamin C and natural sugars, but I really think it's the vodka.

Mark00:44:44

What's wrong? What are you trying to say there?

Arnold00:44:46

I don't want to brag or make anyone jealous, but I can still fit into the socks that I wore in high school.

Ron00:44:55

I like that one. It's not right.

Bob00:44:58

I have any left.

Mark00:44:59

He's not right. I know. Who has socks from high school left, right?

Arnold00:45:06

It was actually earrings. I never wore earrings in high school. I don't wear them now either. I don't like to think before I speak.I like to just be surprised as everyone else about what comes out of my mouth.

Mark00:45:16

Yep, weird. We're living that right now.

Arnold00:45:19

This is a true sign. It said septic tanks pumped, swimming pools filled. Not same truck.

Mark00:45:28

Wow, tough room.

Arnold00:45:34

And before we perfect artificial intelligence, can we work on natural stupidity?

Mark00:45:38

Oh, yes.

Bob00:45:39

I've already perfected that. Oh.

Arnold00:45:45

That's all folks for this hour.

Mark00:45:46

Thank God.

Arnold00:45:48

Thanks for listening.If you've enjoyed this episode, you can listen to additional shows@stlntune.com consider leaving a review on our website, Apple Podcasts, Pod Chaser or your podcast preferred podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and continue to grow.We want to thank Bob Bertha Sell for our theme music, want to thank our guest Ron Jacober and Bob Tiemann for their insights into baseball and our co host Mark Langston. We thank you for being a part of our community of curious minds. St. Louis in tune is a production of Motif Media Group and the US Radio Network.Remember to keep seeking, keep learning, walk worthy and let your light shine. For St. Louis in tune, I'm Arnold Stricker.