An Architectural Marvel & Mosaic Mastery: The Cathedral Basilica of Saint Louis

Arnold00:00:00

352 years of history in St. Louis, the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis. Wow. You want to read this book that we're going to talk about on St. Louis in Tune?Welcome to St. Louis in tune and thank you for joining us for fresh perspectives on issues and events with experts, community leaders and everyday people who make a difference in shaping our society and world. I'm Arnold Stricker along with co host Mark Langston. Mark is trying to keep warm as best as he can.

Mark00:00:42

Oh, my. Yes, you're right. I walked out of the house today. I didn't have a jacket on and I quickly turned around, I walked back in.My family was there and I said, I'm not going. I grabbed a jacket and I even have gloves in the pocket of my jacket.

Arnold00:01:00

Yeah, you have to at this point of time.

Mark00:01:02

I know.

Arnold00:01:02

And tomorrow it will be 72 degrees.

Mark00:01:04

Yeah. Nice weekend, too.

Arnold00:01:06

Yes.

Mark00:01:06

Yeah. What are you going to do? There's no global warming, though.

John00:01:09

No.

Arnold00:01:09

We love talking about the weather here in St. Louis, folks, because it could be zero one day and 80 the next.

Mark00:01:15

That's right. I like the 80s.

Arnold00:01:17

It could snow in July.

Mark00:01:18

No humidity. And I'm fine.

Arnold00:01:20

There you are.

Mark00:01:20

Yep, yep. All that.

Arnold00:01:22

But we're here cozy in the studio. We've got a wonderful guest in his second time visiting us and we're going to talk about his new book.But folks, we're glad that you've joined us today. We want to thank our sponsor, Better Rate Mortgage, for their support of the show.You can listen to previous shows@stlandtune.com please help us continue to grow by leaving a review on our website, Apple Podcast or your preferred podcast platform.

Mark00:01:45

And can I add something real quick?

Arnold00:01:47

Absolutely.

Mark00:01:47

Ladies and gentlemen, folks, kids of all ages. And you've added. We've added. You've added. Somebody's added a YouTube channel.

Arnold00:01:55

Right.

Mark00:01:55

You could get all the YouTubes on the kxok.com website. You still can if you go there. There's a playlist for all of them. But now it's even more convenient to look at past shows and see.You can even see our guests coming up. John, you can look and say, oh, that's what John looks like.

Arnold00:02:15

We can link that to the podcast.

Mark00:02:17

John has a great face for radio.

Arnold00:02:19

That's right.

Mark00:02:19

But you'll have a chance to see what he looks like.

Arnold00:02:22

That's why we're in radio market.

Mark00:02:23

I know. That's right. You're not kidnapped. Yeah. YouTube is really so check that out, folks.

Arnold00:02:27

Thanks for talking about that. Mark.

Mark00:02:28

Yeah. How do you find that? You just go to the YouTube.

Arnold00:02:31

They can check on the podcast page and it just click on the YouTube button and link there.

Mark00:02:36

You go link there.

Arnold00:02:37

Or go to YouTube.com and it's @stl intune.

Mark00:02:41

It's the long saint too. It's not the abbreviated saint, but they.

Arnold00:02:44

Can do the ampersand sign. Oh at stl intune and get the show that way also.

Mark00:02:49

I learn things all the time on this show. That's all I can say. Okay. Sorry to interrupt.

Arnold00:02:54

No, that's fine.

Mark00:02:55

Take those exit ramps.

Arnold00:02:56

Matter of fact, our thought for the day involves creativity. As Mark was talking about and getting the information out and as our guest will be talking about.The whole creative process is putting opposites together into something that wasn't there before. I want to say that again. The whole creative process is putting opposites together into something that wasn't there before. That's Doris Waugh Betts.Something that was very creative that I know.Mark and I, when we grew up here in St. Louis, as did our guest is we watched the cathedral Basilica of St. Louis, the mosaics put together and it was an ongoing process for years and years and years.And architect John Gunther, who holds a fellowship in the American Institute of Architects and was a lecturer in the College of Architecture at Washington University in St. Louis where he co founded and taught Mid Century Modernism in St. Louis, 1930-1970. As our guest, he serves as president of the Society of architectural historians, the St. Louis chapter.And he was in earlier, not today, not last year, but I think two years ago on the Gateway Arch, an illustrated timeline.And he's also written Missouri's Architectural Treasures, published by Missouri Life magazine and 25 Must See Buildings in Missouri for USA Today and the introduction to the Lost St. Louis Riverfront 1930-1943, which documents the historic riverfront architecture removed in anticipation of the Gateway Arch National Park. John, welcome back to St. Louis in Tune.

John00:04:28

Thank you very much. It's great to be with you.

Mark00:04:30

It is great to have him.Can I ask him a real quick question just to start with the old cathedral and the new cathedral, which changed to the basilica, but the old cathedral was built before the new cathedral.

John00:04:43

Yes, it's on cathedral block and it was built between 1831 and 1834, but there were other churches there prior to that. It was designated Cathedral Block at the outset of the founding of St. Louis in the city plan.But there was a log Church of 1770 and then a second log church 1776 and then a brick church in 1818.

Mark00:05:05

Okay. I was just trying to get my head around because the old cathedral is the only church on that row that they. That has remained.

John00:05:13

Yes. In fact, this is the only piece of property that still remains under the same ownership, the Catholic Church, since the founding of St. Louis.

Mark00:05:20

Okay. And because we're going to talk about the cathedral, the new cathedral, there's a lot that's a big story.

Arnold00:05:25

And to give people a little understanding of this, a church. Most people understand what a church is. It's a general term for a Christian place of worship.A cathedral is the main church of a diocese, which is the geographical area under the jurisdiction of a bishop. And a basilica is a title of honor given to a church by the Pope, regardless of whether it is also a cathedral.So you can have a cathedral, but then you can have a cathedral basilica. And in St. Louis, we have two cathedral basilicas. The old cathedral is the Bastila Basilica.

Mark00:05:57

Is that right?

Arnold00:05:57

And the new cathedral.

Mark00:05:58

I'm even a Catholic, and I didn't know that.

Arnold00:06:00

And the old one is because of its historic understanding and recognition, and the new one because of its architectural. Which is why we're here to talk about cathedral Basilica of St. Louis Book John wrote. John, why did you write this book to begin with?

John00:06:15

It's a building that I've admired for a long time. I'm Catholic as well.And so I've had the privilege of attending various services there over the years and always came away with a sense of awe and inspiration. But also I had the opportunity to write this book beginning in 2023.And having written the Gateway Arch book, An Illustrated Timeline, I came to appreciate the power writing a story, but then amplifying it with illustrations along every step of the way.And so with this book, we have 138 key moments in the development of not only the cathedral basilica, but the old cathedral and the city of St. Louis and its founding and expansion. So you can go to various points in history and see an illustration or two or three that back up the writing so you have a much deeper appreciation.

Arnold00:07:04

Yeah. And Mark, he goes back all the way was 1643.

John00:07:07

1673.1673, with Marquette and Joliet coming down the Mississippi river on an expedition, a missionary expedition, and one to see where the Mississippi river was going.

Arnold00:07:18

And then you just lead further and further. You go to. And there's something I didn't know that Pierre Le Le is not his last name. I was like, did you know that, Mark?No, I always thought it was Pierre Lecled.

Mark00:07:31

I'm learning things.

Arnold00:07:32

Yeah. When I read this, I was like, what in the world? Pierre Laclede, Le Guest.

John00:07:36

Yes.

Arnold00:07:38

I was like, we never heard Le Guest.

Mark00:07:40

No.

Arnold00:07:40

Why is that? Do you know?

John00:07:41

I think we've just. It's just been shortened over time there to bear Laclede.

Arnold00:07:45

And we never hear August Augusta Chouteau's first name, which is Renee.

Mark00:07:49

Get out of town.

Arnold00:07:50

Yeah.

John00:07:52

We'll see you, Mark.

Mark00:07:54

Wow.

Arnold00:07:55

I think those are some of the things, John, that make reading a book like this, and then the pictures are just unbelievable. But reading a book like this, giving it a real historical foundation in which people were like, I understand why we are where we are now.

John00:08:12

Yes. Yeah. It's really fascinating to see that.And also of note, as you were mentioning, beginning in 1673, I also document the Illinois missions, and of note, Cahokia, just across the river. And there's an amazing church there, the Holy Family Log Church. It was first built in 1699.So Cahokia was founded before St. Louis, and three missionary priests from Canada came and they started this parish. And in fact, they celebrated on December 8, 1698, the day of the three masses, the feast of the Immaculate Conception.And they actually came across to the west bank of the Mississippi to approximately where Arsenal street is today, and celebrated a Mass on a rock outcropping there. And so that was one of the first Mass that I know of on the west bank bank of the Mississippi.And then in 1699, they built the Holy Family Log Church. And sadly, it burnt in 1740, but then rebuilt in 1799. So it's the oldest church west of the Alleghenies and a very beautiful structure to behold.And it's in a vertical log construction style known by the French. And amazingly, these black walnut logs, which they reused after the fire, they. They date back to the time of Christopher Columbus coming to America.So that's how ancient this structure is. They were growing at that point in time.And another point I would mention is the dimensions of this church are virtually identical to the second log church on cathedral block in St. Louis in 1766.So if you want to time travel and see what it would have been like to go to mass on the riverfront in 1766, visit Cahokia and go to the Holy Family Log Church.

Mark00:09:58

I'm going, that's crazy.

John00:10:00

I am.

Mark00:10:00

I'm going.

John00:10:01

It's open for Mass at 9am on Sundays for a Latin Mass.

Arnold00:10:04

That's unbelievable that it's still standing like that.

Mark00:10:07

Yeah. Yeah, I was going to ask that as he was.

Arnold00:10:10

Now when was the first. Take us back because it's I think of the Cathedral basilica on. Of St. Louis on Lyndall street or as Siri says, Lindell. Lindell Avenue.It's like the great granddaddy. But what was the original. Where was the original church building in.

John00:10:28

St. Louis when St. Louis was founded? Cathedral block was established.

Arnold00:10:32

Okay. And explain cathedral block.

John00:10:34

And so cathedral block was in the very center of St. Louis. It was three blocks up from the river and right in the center line. So there's about 18 streets east west framing that that block.And it was the center of religious activity, social activity and educational activity. And so on that block, 1764, there was a one room log church of 1770 that was built there to serve the purposes.And then later on, as they say, a second log church was built. But that has been the original site of the original church of St. Louis.

Arnold00:11:08

Would that be like now where the arch stands or more towards the river?

John00:11:13

It's exactly where you see the old cathedral, the stone cathedral that is there. From 1831-34 it occupied a block around that. So at various points in time. So the log church was about in the middle of that block.And then there was a cemetery on the northwest corner and then a rector's house and then gardens and a well house and so on. Then a second log church was built alongside of it. And then in 1818, a brick church was built at the northeast corner of that site. And.And then at a certain point it was ready, we were ready for a really beautiful church in stone that was built in 1831-34 and that was under the direction of Bishop Rosati.

Arnold00:11:57

And that's the one that we know.

John00:11:59

Currently is the old cathedral. Right.

Arnold00:12:01

So that's that that cathedral block is down is still.

John00:12:04

It's all, it's all.If you could imagine a block surrounding that existing building, even though you can't make out a block because it's landscaped and it's part of the arch grounds now. But that was the block.

Arnold00:12:13

Well, I remember back in the day, I don't remember this, but back in the day the old cathedral was surrounded just by buildings after that. And it was. They were wondering what are we going to do with this?That's when I think the arch kind of came into mind and we need to preserve this like the old rock house. And they move that.

John00:12:30

Yeah. In fact, interesting story there.In doing the research for the Los St. Louis Riverfront, the idea there they ultimately, after analyzing 40 blocks of these buildings, only three were chosen to remain. The old Cathedral, the Old Courthouse, and the old rock House.And the old rock house would have been just inside the north leg of the arch, as Eero Saarinen envisioned it.But when they had to relocate the railroad tracks about 100ft to the west, that unfortunately meant the destruction of the old rock house, which, by the way, they saved pieces of it. And it's in the museum in the. Under the arch there. But so we really have just two remaining structures, the Old Cathedral and the Old Courthouse.Of note, Charles Peterson, a really great historian, preservation architect, part of the national park parks, and he founded HABS Historic American Building Survey. He wanted to save as many buildings as possible. And then they measured and photographed these buildings and documented them.And then the best examples of those buildings, say the cast iron fronts and so on, they salv. They put them in a warehouse.They were going to have a museum of American architecture so that citizens could still appreciate the architecture that was on the grounds before they were removed. Sadly, there was not funds available to build that Museum of American Architecture, so that never came to be.And then these artifacts were distributed all across the country in points unknown. But he did everything he could to save those buildings.But a really interesting fact that I came across was there was actually discussion of the old Cathedral being relocated basically to where the KMOV, the Channel 4 tower is alongside Luther Ely of Smith Park. And fortunately, Charles Peterson, he fought for that and said, no, it's got to stay right where it is.And that's one of his proudest accomplishments, was not having it moved. And we're all grateful for that too, that it's still in the original location.

Mark00:14:26

We as a family, we used to go to the old Cathedral on New Year's Day and go to Mass. It was our tradition that we did. I remember this still hurts me still see the results of it.Somebody took a spray can and the pillars of the old cathedral, they sprayed eye level, they sprayed circles around it. And they came. Maybe you don't know this, I don't know. And they came and they wanted to get rid of it. And I think they scrubbed it.And you can now see where when they clean that up, it dug into those pillars. So maybe next time you go down there, you see they were there. There was. It was terrible. I remember it.I was young, very young, and I remember going to mass and seeing those, and they just let it sit there for a long time before they were able. And they came in and they scrubbed it so much, they did scrub some of the rock, the stone, away from those pillars, but it was. Yeah.

John00:15:18

And of note, that building is created out of Joliet limestone from Joliet, Illinois. Maybe that Joliet comes down. But they actually. They actually built that out of limestone. And it's a little bit soft.

Mark00:15:30

I was going to say limestone is a little soft.

John00:15:32

It's aged. And you can. Can see that kind of.

Mark00:15:34

If you look at it, you'll see where you'll go, oh, this must be where some vandal came with a black spray can. And just.

John00:15:40

But of note, this was the first building of significance in the state of Missouri, the first cathedral west of the Mississippi River. And it was designed by Martin and lavey, the first architects west of the Mississippi.

Mark00:15:52

Wow.

John00:15:52

So a lot of firsts there.

Arnold00:15:54

Yeah. Something I thought was that. I didn't realize either was that St. Louis was the center of the diocese, which really was half the United States.

John00:16:05

That's correct.

Arnold00:16:06

It was like, what is that?

Mark00:16:08

Right?

Arnold00:16:08

Yeah, there's a picture in the book. It's like, what?

John00:16:10

Yeah, 1826. And so, by the way, next year will be the 200th anniversary of the founding of the Diocese of St. Louis. And so you're correct.It was half of the United States. Pope Leo XII was the one who founded the Diocese of St. Louis. And this is July 18, 1826. And he divided the Louisiana Territory into two.Diocese New Orleans, which is basically the state of Louisiana, and then St. Louis was the remainder of the. Of The Diocese of St. Louis, of the remainder of the Louisiana Purchase.So basically, that Louisiana territory divided in two, doubled the size of the country, and added a vast number of Catholics to serve in this area, about 50,000 Catholics to serve. And so that was quite a monumental task to serve all of those people in this burgeoning country.

Mark00:17:00

John, how many Catholics do you think are in St. Louis right now? I've heard a couple of different. 250, 300,000. Apparently. We have a large population of Catholics here.

John00:17:09

Yes, very much. And that's part of the book, too.So you can appreciate the influence of Catholicism on the city of St. Louis and how it was founded and expanded and so on.

Arnold00:17:18

Yeah. And as the expansion went further west, it seemed the church was like, we need to move the center of where we need to be. And there was some.Okay, we need to go to Grand. No, we need to go further out. Oh, we need to go further out. And they landed at the current location on Lindell, right?

John00:17:35

Correct. Yeah. In fact, Archbishop Peter Kenrick, he. He was faced with that task as well. He was at the. The old cathedral on the riverfront.And as you point out, it was full of buildings all around and lots of industry, lots of shipping coming and going, outfitting those who are going westward.And at a certain point he felt like it was so crowded that he was starting to think that maybe this wasn't the best location for the cathedral and his Episcopal seat. So he actually went to St. John the Apostle and Evangelist and made that his pro cathedral.And that was about 16th street, so a little further west to serve again the expanding city and the Catholic population moving westward. And so he was there for a number of years. And that was his task then, to look for yet the next new cathedral location.And they looked at a variety of locations and ultimately his successor found the archbishop. Kane found the Lyndall and Newstead site for that property in 1895.

Arnold00:18:40

Arnold Stricker with Mark Langson of St. Louis in tune. We're talking about the cathedral Basilica of St. Louis book, which is by John C. Gunther. He's our guest today. An architect and an author.And this book is an illustrated timeline because when you go in here, you will see some unbelievable references of photographs that are. I've never seen anything like this.You've done some yeoman's work on getting a visual representation of what you talk about in words here in the book. And where did you get all these things?

John00:19:13

From a variety of sources. And I might say this be this evolved from writing a book to a calling. I was totally consumed with doing this.But I had the great privilege of researching in the archives of the St. Louis Archdiocese. And they rolled out amazing files for me to review and pour over and study and document and so on. So there was lots of information there.Also at the Cathedral Basilica itself, there's an archive on the third floor of the rectory.And I was granted permission to go there and study for days and hours upon time to actually look at the records and actually hold what we call maquettes, samples, designs of the great arch and the transept domes and so on. So to be able to hold that history and study it firsthand was truly amazing.Along with the construction documents, and then there was a variety of other sources. Mercantile Library with the various collections, the Globe Democrat collection of photographs and so on.I found it interesting to see what moments in time they thought were worthy of documenting in the newspaper. And so those are part of the book as well. Also, the construction photos are from a book from 1911, Notable Catholic Institutions.And this was from the St. Louis Public Library, Central Library. And it documented the construction process from 1911 to 1914 or so. Or so 1907 to about 1914. So we could see how the building was built.And it's really amazing because it adds a human touch to it. You see the workman opposing.Actually, there's a signal man standing really on the precipice of a granite wall way up in the air, signaling that it's time for the crane to lift up materials to an upper level. And definitely pre osha.

Arnold00:20:58

And he had his lifeline on.

John00:20:59

Yeah, Right. And. And they're in suit coats and bowler derby hats. Yeah. It was so classy. But it was really interesting to see.

Arnold00:21:07

Work clothes back then.

John00:21:08

The craftsman chipping away at the stone on between the cathedral chapel and the cathedral under construction.

Arnold00:21:14

Okay, now I want you to go into why this building became a basilica. And it's mainly from my perspective, it's the mosaics, which started when. And when did they stop? Are they still going on?

John00:21:27

They have been completed. They were completed in 1988.They began with the Commission for Mosaics in 1912 with the Tiffany Company of New York for the two chapels off to the side, off to the left side. And those two chapels were designed by Tiffany and Aristide Leonori, an Italian architect and artist. And they're done in the Italian style.And I mention that because when you look at that, compared to the rest of the basilica with the Byzantine style of mosaics, you note that the Italian style is a bit flatter. It's a bit more painterly, photographic almost.And when you look at the Byzantine mosaics, the artisans would put the mosaics on the walls, but then they would angle the glass tesserae mosaics ever so slightly to catch the light. So when you notice the sparkle of the Byzantine mosaics, that is why, because they actually angled.It's not perfectly flat, but rather very sensitively angled to catch the light. But we begin in 1912 with the commission with Tiffany. They are installed in 1915.They were on display in Tiffany in New York before they came to St. Louis, but they were installed in 1915. And then we proceed from there. And Archbishop Glennon wanted to work with local artisans. And so Emil Frey Art Glass Studios.Emil Frey senior had the idea of incorporating a group called Ravenna Mosaics.And he was from Germany, Emil Frey Sr. Was, and he knew of Poole and Wagner from Berlin, and he knew this was a great firm with talented artisans and artists who could produce in very large quantities these Byzantine mosaics that Glennon wanted to have. And so they formed the Ravenna Mosaic Company with Emil Frey senior as a local base for the operation.And then Paul and Arno Heideck, father and son, came to, to St. Louis to then implement, install these, these mosaics in both of them. They spent their entire lives creating the mosaics that you see today.In fact, Arnaud passed away just a few months prior to, just after the completion of the mosaics in 1988. So it was a really lifelong dedication.And this whole book is a testimony to all the amazing artists and craftsmen, architects, builders, such persistence and the vision that the Archbishop had and so on to build this magnificent cathedral. You can appreciate every step of the way by noting when these mosaics were put into place.So I document the first Byzantine mosaics in the transepts in 1923. And then we go on from there. 1947-61. Hildreth Meir, amazing muralist. She was known throughout the country.Known, celebrated, received an honor from the American Institute of Architect for Art. She graces with, I think it was about nine mosaic designs throughout the cathedral that we greatly admire today.

Arnold00:24:19

Now, let's talk about that a little bit so people understand. And we're going to probably go to a break here in a little bit, but let's tease them a little bit.How many square footage, square feet are we talking about or how many.

John00:24:32

Yes.

Arnold00:24:33

How many millions of mosaics?

John00:24:34

This is the largest collection of glass tesserae mosaics in the Western Hemisphere.Upon completion, I believe it's been surpassed a little bit by a church in Washington D.C. but at the time of completion, we have 83,000 square feet of glass Tasserae mosaics. Wow. And when you think there are 500 pieces per square foot, they're very small pieces. That totals 41.5 million square feet.And this is done in 7,000 shades of colored glass and 200 different shades of 24 karat gold mosaics. So it's an amazing artwork to behold and it's a must see.I've been told by friends that if this cathedral were in Europe, there'd be lines around the block going to see it. I believe that, yeah, everybody should really take the time to come in and visit and receive that sense of awe when you see it.

Arnold00:25:28

We're going to talk more about that as we talk about the book cathedral Basilica of St. Louis, an illustrated Timeline by John Gunther. But we'll do that right after our break. This is Arnold Stricker with Mark Langston of St. Louis in tune don't go away.Everyone in St. Louis promises a better mortgage rate. But what you really need to turn that perfect house into your dream home is a better mortgage.At Better Rate Mortgage, we open the door to so much more. Whether you're purchasing your first home or taking cash out to make your dream home even dreamier, our door is open. Come on in and get started.Today. We'll show you how.Call Sean directly at 314-375-3293 or online@betterratemortgage.com Remember, at Better Rate Mortgage, a better rate is just the beginning. Betterratemortgage.com MLS ID 2401335 and equal housing Lender.

Mark00:26:22

Who's driving this thing?

Arnold00:26:25

Not me.

Mark00:26:27

W. I don't think I am either.

Arnold00:26:31

Welcome back to St. Louis in Tune. This is Arnold Stricker with Mark Langston.We're talking to John Gunther about his latest book, cathedral Basilica of St. Louis, an illustrated Timeline. Folks, this is a great history, whether you're Catholic or not.It's a wonderful book of architecture and art because of what we just talked about, that the cathedral Basilica of St. Louis features the Western world's largest collection of mosaics, covering 83,000 square feet of the cathedral's interior, composed of more than 41 and a half million pieces of glass in 7,000 shades of color. Now, John, I remember these little pieces of tile. Okay, how big are these pieces and how do they go about doing this? Do they do.Because I know an artist would draw out what they want and then they would do like what you said, a, a sample.

John00:27:19

Right.

Arnold00:27:20

And then they would put it up on, on the wall or on the ceiling. But do they make portions of this on a table and then put it up, or do they take individual pieces and stick it up there?Because it's, you got to get the color scheme going and the shading and everything. How do they do all this stuff?

John00:27:37

It is truly, I consider it a miracle, really, when you see the process and what has resulted. But let me take you through step by step, the process.So there, there was a master plan, if you will, for the overall design and layout of where these various mosaics and themes should go within the cathedral. That was produced again by Emil Frey Studios and Ravenna. And then an artist is selected for a certain feature.So let's just say it's the Arch of Triumph.And then that artist will set about creating a sketch and a drawing, typically in pencil, and that is reviewed with the client with an approval and then if that receives approval, then that goes into a color maquette and so that the artist and the client can start to see the colors involved with this creation. And then what happens is they create what are called a cartoon. It's a full size drawing of various components of this great arch. And it will have.The individual pieces will be drawn with pencil on this brown paper. And then they have to look at the color description of this design.And then they have to choose one of 7,000 colors of glass, tess, glass, tesserae to put in that position. And as you can see, they're. They're just the creation of the face.And there's a beautiful example, I might point out of Moses, a mosaic that's in the museum on the lower level of the cathedral.And although it was not used in the cathedral, it stands as testimony to the amazing craftsmanship, artistry and so on of those artisans who fabricated this mosaic. So they pick out various shades, 7,000 shades, to create the face of Moses and others, along with the background and what have you.And what is amazing to me though, is these 7,000 shades, they arrive, they're in the factory as pancakes of glass. So they have these circular pancakes where they pour out the colored glass and it hardens.And then from that they take a chisel and they chisel off a piece to create the exact shape they need.Then they take that piece of mosaic and they glue it to that hand drawn cartoon paper on brown paper, pencil on brown paper, and they glue it onto the face and they create this panel. Now, this panel may be the size of a desk here. It may be 2 1/2, 3ft by 4ft. Then. So this is all backed up by this paper.Then they climb up the scaffolding to the ceiling and there is a wet mortar cement applied to the concrete structure. And then they position it and push it into that wet mortar. And then they tap the mosaics to give a slight angle so that it catches the light.They let that dry and harden. Then they pull the paper off, and then they clean it and grout it. But what's part of this process is it's all done. The image is done in reverse.I was going to say that you're looking at the face of this mosaic, but that face will be applied to the, to the surface of the dome. And then when it's pulled off, then you see it and how it's supposed to appear.So when there's letters written in mosaics in the ceiling, they were all in reverse originally on the floor of Rivetta mosaics. And then what is truly amazing is these are. They create this panel, this master panel diagram that shows this panel.Here it is next to the next panel, and so on and so forth. And they're not square panels. They are in and out and so on. And so these are created.They were created in Ravenna mosaics, a lot of them in Germany and sent over and then later on in Fredericktown, Missouri. But they're fabricated in the studio and then brought to the site and then put up. So they all had to fit absolutely perfectly.So, again, I consider this almost a minor miracle that it came out so beautifully, but that just speaks to the quality of the artists, the artisans, the craftsman that installed it.

Arnold00:31:44

Now, are these pieces, are they like clear colored glass or are they like what I would call tile that we would see, like in a bathroom kind of thing?

John00:31:52

Yeah, they are a solid color of glass. Glass, okay. And then the gold Tess Ray, they applied a film of gold and baked that on to the. To the glass piece.But, yes, it's a solid panel of glass, of colored glass that comes. That makes these.

Arnold00:32:06

So each one has a little gold on it, too?

John00:32:08

Not each and every one, but. But many do.

Mark00:32:12

Unbelievable.

Arnold00:32:13

Wow, look at that. Okay. Yeah, so that's page 135, Mark. Okay, we'll have to. I'll have to post that one up.

John00:32:21

Yes. Yeah.

Mark00:32:23

All right.

Arnold00:32:23

And how many different artists were involved with this?

John00:32:28

There were quite a few over time.

Arnold00:32:30

That kind of were the. With Amo Frey. Of who. With all of the. Because it seems like the mosaics kept going and going. We brought education in. And how many.Like what the church was doing to. As far as mission work and things like that.

John00:32:43

Yeah. So August Etkin was a professor and an artist in Germany. He designed those first transept mosaics.The vestibule, which is quite amazing, was designed by John von Wicht in 1931. That was installed.That's the barrel vault with a lot of glass, golden glass tesserae in there to reflect more light from the three arched windows that face to the south. So that was another amazing piece. Felix Baumhauer was another artist.John DeRozan also designed the Arch of Last Judgment, and as I mentioned, Hildreth Meir, a number of those panels, a number of those designs. And then Mary Reardon for the more modern. Just a number of artists.And then behind them are all the craftsmen in the studio realizing their vision for those colored mosaics and the proper choice.

Arnold00:33:35

That's insane. That's insane.Some of These scenes depict from the Old and New Testament, as well as principal doctrines of the church and its history in the United States, with an emphasis on St. Louis. Now, I wanted to ask this question because. And maybe I'm sure you know this, but if you don't, that's okay.That Barnett Haynes was the architecture group and was the building itself. The building itself was pretty magnificent. It was.They were like likening it to St. Peter's in Rome, but at the same time, on the inside it was just like a blank canvas. And so the artists had this whole canvas. Fry had this whole canvas of basically concrete and stone to work with.But the building itself was pretty magnificent on its own.

John00:34:22

It absolutely was. And actually George D. Barnett, who designed the building, he actually made comparisons to Westminster Cathedral in London, England.

Arnold00:34:30

Westminster, okay.

John00:34:31

And he compared all the dimensions, the seating capacities, the heights and so on with the St. Louis Cathedral coming out on top on all of these comparisons.

Mark00:34:39

Wow.

John00:34:40

So he was taking a worldview of how this would look when it was completed. But I might point out that an interesting side story, Barnett Haynes and Barnett, local firm and it's two brothers and a brother in law.And they, the Barnett's were sons of George I. Barnett, who was considered the first architect in St. Louis, and he designed Tower Grove House and also the Governor's Mansion in Jefferson City and a number of notable works.But George Barnett, actually, Barnett Haynes and Barnett were actually hired by Kane to actually begin the first design, which is in the book a Roman sort of basilica style. But when Glennon came in in 1903, he didn't care for the design.He felt that the design should be a combination of a Romanesque exterior and a Byzantine interior.He said his rationale was that Gothic cathedrals have these great arches and spires that reach towards heaven, but the Byzantine with its great domes brings heaven to earth. So that was his theory of why this building should look the way it does today.And so he actually called for a new competition, an international competition with European architects from across the United States and of course, our own Barnett, Haynes and Barnett. And ultimately they won this competition. So they designed the building for a second time.And so they were selected as winners in 1906 and then began preparing the plans for that cathedral per the requirements of this combination of Romanesque and Byzantine.

Arnold00:36:14

I looked up on Wikipedia about the Basilica Cathedral and they give homage to Tom Barnett as the architect and who was the son, brother, rather than George, who was the mover and shaker behind it all. I was like, somebody probably needs to correct that A little bit and give both of them some credit.

John00:36:36

Yeah, I'm sure it was a collaboration, to be sure. Yeah. Architects do not work in isolation. It's a collaborative effort.

Arnold00:36:42

Can you imagine walking into a huge concrete and stone structure and saying, have at it. What would you do here? I'm sure you have had clients that said, hey, money's no object. Design me what you want to design for a house or if it was a.An art building or a commercial building and have at it. That's wow, free reign to anybody like that.

John00:37:03

Yes. And the money is no object is a very rare occasion, but in fact it's great.Archbishop Glennon said that he expected this building to cost about a million dollars because it's not good to have a debt with the Almighty. So they were held to the these budgets and it was built over time as funds were available.

Arnold00:37:22

And it's coming, it's going to be coming up on 100 years anniversary.

John00:37:28

Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Mark00:37:29

The official day that it was opened was in 1926. 26, yeah.

Arnold00:37:34

So next year. And it's gone under. Several renovations, several roofs and cleaning of the outside and even some of the stones being replaced on the outside.What I understand from reading your book.

John00:37:47

It is a massive structure and reacted in different ways over time. There was, in the 1950s, there was, you can imagine with the coal burning and the pollution and the accumulation of soot on the gray granite facade.There was a great cleaning of that facade at that point in time. And they also replaced the green tile roof as well. But then later on they. They took a restoration renovation that went way beyond it.It took several years and it was necessary with. With there was a part of the north. Sorry, the southwest tower was starting to pull away a little bit. There was a crack developing.So Alper structural engineer devised a way to. To reinforce that and bring it back in alignment with. With some stainless steel reinforcing rods as well.So they restored and then they tuck pointed the joints as well as replacing some of the damaged granite, they replaced the guttering system and so on. And then there was also the replacement of the transept domes which had started to leak and actually damaged the transept paintings inside.So they had to take those down.They were put in 1924 in an El seco method, that's a wet plaster on dry plaster method where they actually painted the murals as opposed to doing them in tile. That was because they were pushing for the hundredth anniversary of the Diocese 1926 to have as much of the cathedral completed as Possible.So that's what they did. But that lasted from 1924-84, and then at that point, that's when the new mosaics were installed in 1984-86.But that was a result of some of the water damage in those domes. They're constantly keeping up with the maintenance of this great cathedral and keeping it watertight and structurally sound.And in fact, the most recent work was the RE illumination, the transformational illumination of the interior by a friend of mine, Randy Burkett, a great lighting designer, who, by the way, has lit the Gateway Arch three times ever, each time with greater efficiency.

Arnold00:39:52

It's great. Yeah.

John00:39:53

But this time with. With the Cathedral Basilica, they've installed these, an array of LED lights, and they use 15% of the energy previously used.And you can see the mosaics in much better illumination in a whole new way. Hats off to Randy and his team at Burkitt Lighting, Reed Burkitt. And they did a magnificent job.

Arnold00:40:12

Yeah. Because just to be able. You walk in, I remember being in there just briefly one time, and it's. You're craning your neck to see everything.And that was when there was still scaffolding going on. They were still working on some of the ceiling and some of the walls.In thinking about this, in taking a tour, which I'm sure they do, they give tours.

John00:40:30

They do. They have docents who give wonderful tours on a fairly regular basis. I would call ahead and see when those are, I believe, afternoon mass on Sundays.You can take a tour after that.

Arnold00:40:40

And are there other churches that have similar kinds of mosaics in the area? Do you know of.

John00:40:48

I'm sure there are some, but I would have to.

Arnold00:40:52

You focused on this one?

John00:40:53

Yeah, I'm really focused on this one.

Mark00:40:55

Yes.

John00:40:55

Yes.

Arnold00:40:55

I would say anyone that wants to go on a tour of the Cathedral Basilica really needs to read this book first because it will make that tour. You might know more than the tour guide. Matter of fact, tour guides ought to read this book. You catch that, tour guide?

John00:41:09

I hope it helps.

Mark00:41:10

Yeah. Is there anyone buried in the. In the cathedral?

John00:41:14

Yes. Yes. There are archbishops that are interred in. There's a tomb of internment, a chapel of Internment on the lower level, below the All Saints Chapel.It's on the. So if you go down to the lower level to the Mosaic museum, if you turn right to go down that hallway, you'll see that Chapel of Internment.Okay, so there are several archbishops interred there.

Mark00:41:35

Is that several? Okay. Wow. All right.

John00:41:38

Yeah. And in fact, of note, Bishop Rosati, who Built the old cathedral. He had passed in Rome while he was there on business. And he was.He was buried there for about 111 years. And then the Archdiocese of St. Louis wrote to Rome asking that his mortal remains be brought back to St. Louis. And so that was granted.And he was interred in this chapel of internment for a number of years. That was 1954, when he came back to St. Louis.And then there was a decision made, a request that his body be interred in its ultimate resting place under the altar at the old cathedral which he built. And so that is his final resting place.

Arnold00:42:19

Oh, which really makes sense.

Mark00:42:21

It does, really makes sense.

Arnold00:42:22

Now, you had a story for us before we went on the air about someone came to you and asked you a question.

John00:42:30

Yes. I had a very moving experience on Sunday.I was signing books at Barnes and Noble and West county center, and this young lady came up to me and asked me if there was a piece of writing in the book about the first baptism in St. Louis.And in speaking with her, she let me know that she was a descendant of this young Marie, a French child, French infant who was baptized under a tent for lack of church. They did not have a church on cathedral block at that point in time. So Father Murin baptized the French infant Marie.She was the daughter of Jean Baptiste Deschamps and Marie Pinon. And she was born in September of 1765 and baptized in 1766. And here with me was the descendant of that lineage.

Arnold00:43:22

Can you imagine, Mark?

John00:43:23

Absolutely amazed. It was such a great honor to meet her.And then she asked me if in the book there was an image of this event memorialized in the mosaics in the cathedral. And yes, there is. It is in the arch. It's in the Dome of local history area in the south arch.And you can see in mosaics you can see the tent with the baptism occurring. It's on the left hand side of the arch.

Mark00:43:48

Amazing.

John00:43:49

So that's the beauty when you come to the cathedral in the dome of local history, you can see the history of St. Louis Saints who spread Catholicism across America. And all those who've had such a great impact in this region, Cardinal Ritter, Father de Smet, Joliet, Marquette, the Bolivian missions and so on.So you can stand there and look up and just learn a lot just by reading and looking at the mosaics and have a greater appreciation of all those who have come before.

Arnold00:44:16

Wow.

Mark00:44:16

So many of those bishops names have become part of our community.

John00:44:21

Absolutely, they really have.

Mark00:44:22

It's amazing. Now, I don't know if anyone's going to talk about the papal visit. The Pope came to St. Louis. I think he stayed.I don't know if he stayed at the rectory or. There's a building next to the rectory. He spent the night here even.

John00:44:34

Yes. At the Archbishop's residence in the corner there, a little bit to the west. And yes, that was an amazing event.

Mark00:44:41

I don't believe we've ever had a Pope until that come to St. Louis.

John00:44:45

I could be wrong, but, yes, that.

Mark00:44:46

Was first and last so far.

John00:44:49

So far, yes. Yes. So at any rate, those couple of days were very momentous, to say the least. And.And so many people were able to attend Mass there at the new cathedral, at the Cathedral Basilica, which had just been dedicated as a basilica, and also to. Down at the, I believe, the Edward Jones Dome. He said mass to the youth down there.I would point out something that I've learned since I wrote the book was at the mass at the dome, he actually used a chalice from the pastor of the Holy Family Log Church of Cahokia. So this chalice, dated, it was over 300 years old. And he was able to use that chalice to celebrate Mass.

Mark00:45:30

I'm getting.

John00:45:31

So, again, it's that interconnectivity of history, connecting the dots of history that I find absolutely fascinating.

Arnold00:45:36

And you do a great job of that, John. Kudos to you for this book and previous books, but this book has just been just the visual along with the history. It has been unbelievable.Makes me want to actually go take a tour.

Mark00:45:49

Oh, yeah.

Arnold00:45:50

And see exactly what we've been talking about.

Mark00:45:52

Both of my boys have had their confirmations. The basilica, the new cathedral, of course, that was. That was fun.

Arnold00:45:58

Yeah.

Mark00:45:58

And I've got a. I've got a family member getting married there. I've never gone to a wedding there either. It's quite a place.

John00:46:05

It really is.

Mark00:46:05

Yeah. It's worth stopping in and visiting. Yeah.

John00:46:08

You mentioned some of the names that we know so well today. So when Bishop Berg.

Mark00:46:13

The Bergh High School.

John00:46:14

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. So when it was he.When he was designated to serve this vast area, I found it interesting that he spent the first couple of years traveling throughout Europe asking for help, asking for funding, asking for missionaries to come help him because of this vast area, in the large population. And so he asked Father Joseph Rosati to come over. Father Felix d', Andres, Mother Rose Philippine Duchenne. Father Neerings.

Mark00:46:42

There it is.

John00:46:43

Father De Smet.

Mark00:46:44

Yeah.

John00:46:44

So all these names that we know today, they answered the call and came.

Mark00:46:48

Here I didn't know Rezadi King was at. Name of.

John00:46:51

Yes, yes. Combination. Combination.

Mark00:46:53

Yes. Wow.

Arnold00:46:55

You can see John. And purchase a book, get a book signed, listen to a conversation that he's going to do. I'm going to give you some dates here.November 21st at the Oasis Institute, and that's from 1 to 3pm that's on 50 Gay Avenue in Clayton.Then on the 22nd of November, he's going to be at Clifford Cave branch library from 2 to 4pm that's down on Telegraph Road on Dec. 7 at the Old Cathedral Museum, the Basilica of St. Louis, King of France. Old Cathedral Museum. And that will be after Mass, is that correct?

John00:47:32

Yes, after 10:30 mass and afternoon mass.

Arnold00:47:34

Okay.And then on December 12th at the Kirkwood Public Library from 6pm to 8pm and also at the Kirkwood Public Library on February 5th from 7 to 9pm but you can. How can people keep an update of where you're going to be, John? Is there a website or something?

John00:47:55

Well, I would suggest contacting Reedy Press and just checking in with them to see any kind of new listings.

Arnold00:48:01

Okay. Yeah. Now, my last question, and we might not get to what we're going to get to, Mark, but that's okay.

Mark00:48:07

That's okay.

Arnold00:48:07

What was your biggest holy smokes moment?

John00:48:13

There's some interesting ones, actually. There's several of them. But let me do mention this one.I came across the words of Monsignor Tellthorst, who was a rector there, and he really put things in perspective for me in studying this magnificent cathedral and the mosaics.And he was addressing his parish and the members of the parish, and he said, perhaps a mosaic in the end is our best comparison as each of us adds to the beauty of the parish family and creates a magnificent design for the glory of God. So imagine all these millions of mosaics translating that to people.

Arnold00:48:49

People.

John00:48:50

Yes.And so, by extension, I think about reflecting the history of the Cathedral Basilica of Saint Louis and all those who dedicated their lives and efforts to its realization. Perhaps a mosaic is our best comparison with them and then as they contributed their part to the beauty that we behold today.But I would also further ask that we all reflect on how each of us, like a mosaic, contribute our unique gifts to make our world more beautiful.

Mark00:49:19

Sid, I appreciate your calling.

John00:49:21

Thank you.

Arnold00:49:22

Thank you.

Mark00:49:22

As I'm listening to you and I'm paging through the book, I believe you're right. I think it was a calling for you. It's wonderful that you've gathered all this information from all these different places.And you've attempted, I would say, to fill them into the book, but done very well with it. Yeah. Quite a calling. Thank you.

Arnold00:49:40

And it's not that you're just an author. You're an architect who appreciates this.You understand what went into building this and the artwork that is there and your Catholic faith just combined and it, like Mark was saying, labor of love.

Mark00:49:55

I would say so.

Arnold00:49:58

Thank you very much for coming in, John, and talking to us.

Mark00:50:00

Can I ask, John, where you were? Where'd you go to school?

John00:50:02

I attended Chaminade High school here in St. Louis.

Mark00:50:05

Okay.

John00:50:05

And a wonderful story there, the influence of our teachers. I took a technical drafting class my senior year.

Mark00:50:12

Okay.

John00:50:12

I think it was his last semester of senior year. Mr. Walter Resch.When I turned in my assignment for the design of an addition to our house, he looked at it and he said, have you ever thought about being an architect? Those eight words changed my life forever. And he handed me information and brochures on various colleges of architecture, and I never looked back.I went forward with that.I attended the University of Kansas, had a wonderful education there, and had the privilege of teaching there and working in Lawrence, Kansas, before returning to St. Louis. And I've had a wonderful 50 years in architecture picture.

Arnold00:50:45

It's amazing what teachers influence can be with the right words at the right time.

John00:50:51

Amen. Yeah, absolutely.

Mark00:50:53

It worked out good for the book and for all of us for the historical aspect of what's going on here.

Arnold00:50:58

Thanks for coming in, John.

John00:50:59

Thank you so much.

Arnold00:51:00

Mark, do you have some days of the day?

Mark00:51:02

Oh, I could. I know it's Veterans Day today. Yesterday was area code day, and we.

Arnold00:51:08

Have a new area code here in the St. Louis area.

Mark00:51:10

Is that right?

Arnold00:51:11

Yes.

Mark00:51:11

Only you would know that.

Arnold00:51:12

Don't ask me what it is. It begins with a five, though.

Mark00:51:15

Begins with. Okay.

Arnold00:51:16

And for those of you who are listening, we're recording this on Veterans Day.

Mark00:51:19

Which is Armistice Day, isn't it?

Arnold00:51:21

That's correct.

Mark00:51:22

1111. Yep. It's also Chicken Soup for the Soul Day, which is good.

Arnold00:51:29

Chicken Soup for the Soul. Chicken soup's good anytime.

Mark00:51:32

Yeah, I'm a big. I'm a big fan of it. National Happy Hour Day. Let's see. National French Dip Day. Do you like French dips, anybody?

Arnold00:51:41

Yes.

Mark00:51:43

And it's also Get Outdoors Week when it's cold. Okay.

Arnold00:51:47

Yes. Always a time to do that. I can give you some mental floss. Why do people put rubber ducks on the dashboards of Jeeps? Have you seen that?

Mark00:51:54

Yeah. I'd like to know this.

Arnold00:51:56

It's called Duck Jeep. And apparently a Canadian woman was road tripping in the States, and after an encounter at a rest stop, she decided to do something small.But Conchi bought a rubber duck from a nearby store, wrote nice Jeep on it, and placed it on a Jeep in the parking lot. And that simple gesture sparked a movement and Jeep owners joined in. And the rest is history. Yeah.

Mark00:52:22

Now it's like in your way when you're driving, I see some of them.

Arnold00:52:25

They'Re like so many in the dashboard, they can't see out.

Mark00:52:28

Can you see?

Arnold00:52:29

They can't see out.

John00:52:30

I know it.

Arnold00:52:30

I think I have. I could do one joke, Mark.

Mark00:52:33

Okay, one joke. That's all we can take John. Okay. Don't let him do any more than one John. Just reach across.

Arnold00:52:42

Okay. Sorry I said this one last week, but it still would work.

Mark00:52:46

Okay.

Arnold00:52:46

John will appreciate this. Yesterday I helped my Neighbor hang a 75 inch TV he bought from some guy on the street. When he turned it on, it was the menu from kfc.

Mark00:52:57

Love that. Okay, that's good.

Arnold00:53:00

We're out of time, folks. We thank you for joining us. That's all for this hour.

Mark00:53:03

Thanks.

Arnold00:53:04

If you've enjoyed this episode, you can listen to additional shows@stlintune.com consider leaving a review on our website, Apple Podcast or your preferred podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and continue to grow.Want to thank Bob Berthasell for our theme music, our sponsor, Better Rate Mortgage, our guest, John Gunther and co host Mark Langston. And we thank you for being a part of our community of curious minds. St. Louis in tune is a production of Motif Media Group and the US Radio Network.Remember to keep seeking, keep learning, walk worthy, and let your light shine. For St. Louis in tune, I'm Arnold Stricker.